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Author Topic: Chain guide installation problems on an 08 supreme  (Read 4559 times)
supreme-rider
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« on: 1 Sep 09, 00:28 »

hi, i am currently fitting the 09 lg1 to my 08 supreme and im having some problems, and i tried e-13s online pdf manual which is the same manual you get in the box which is the one i cant understand.
On the 09 lg1 it wont let me put spacers behind the jockey wheel cage and upper guide, and i have tried 3 black spacers and 2 gold spacers on each iscg adaptor tab and the chainring still rubs against the jocky wheel cage.
The chain ring is set to the out side of the crankarm.
I have tried the adaptor on the inverted side and flat side with no success either way.

any directions would be helpful,

matt
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Phil
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« Reply #1 on: 1 Sep 09, 12:25 »

Hi Matt,

I've had a lot of 'fun' with the LG-1 on my Supreme DH so may be able to help.  A couple more questions first...

Does your frame have a 68mm bottom bracket shell and 150mm rear hub?

What axle length/ chain line cranks are you running?  68/73 with a 50mm chainline or 83mm with a 57.5mm chainline?
« Last Edit: 6 Sep 09, 21:53 by Phil » Logged

supreme-rider
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« Reply #2 on: 1 Sep 09, 22:11 »

hi, its 68mm bb shell, 150mm rear axle spacing, 123mm bb spindle length, not sure of chainline size (how do i measure it).
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Phil
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« Reply #3 on: 1 Sep 09, 22:54 »

Chainline is the distance from the centre of the BB to the centre of the middle ring.

What cranks are they?

I've got some different suggestions for setup but depends on the crank - and if you can change them or not.
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supreme-rider
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« Reply #4 on: 1 Sep 09, 23:56 »

hi they are the shimano saint m810-1 crankset
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Phil
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« Reply #5 on: 2 Sep 09, 22:02 »

OK, there are a couple of solutions.  One is possibly expensive and may not be an option.  The other way is a bodge.  Here's a clue which option I chose...



Yup - an expensive bodge!

First question, that'll save me lots and lots of typing and you lots of hassle.

Are you able to sell your cranks and buy some Saint M815's with the 83mm bottom bracket?  If you are it'll make your life much easier!

Basically, the 150mm rear end needs an 83mm shell on it.  Since the frame actually has a 68mm shell you run into all sorts of clearance issues as you are finding out.

Runnig the 83mm crankset allows you to put a 5mm spacer on each side of the BB.  This spaces the cranks out, restores the chainline and gives you the clearance to run your chainring in the middle ring position and set the chain device up right.

If you can't swap the crank, you are into various bodges designed to push the cranks as far right as possible....
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Phil
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« Reply #6 on: 3 Sep 09, 22:39 »

If swapping your cranks isn't an option, stay tuned for some bodging advice.

In the making the best of a bad job bodging stakes, you've got the best cranks.  That's the good news.  More soon when I've got a bit more time...
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« Reply #7 on: 6 Sep 09, 17:03 »

Check out the classifieds, Eichler is selling just what you need.

If not, bodge details coming shortly!
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Phil
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« Reply #8 on: 6 Sep 09, 21:52 »

Here's some info I got from e13 when I was fitting my e13 onto my Saint cranks:

150 rear end calls for a 56-57.5mm chainline (usually coupled with an 83mm bb shell). Shimano does not currently make a 57.5 chainline crankset that will fit on 68/73 shell. They only make an 83mm shell version of said chainline crankset. Other manufacturers do, like Race Face. Any frame with a symmetrical, 150 rear end should not run a 50mm chainline - it will drastically cross gear gears 6-9 (roughly). It will also cause unneeded chainguide rub (for any brand). It can be made to work, but 150 rear ends are becoming paired with 83mm shells more often. 68/73 shells are slowly phasing out when manufacturing a 150 rear end frame. Commencal is changing their designs in the future along with many other frame manufacturers. I believe the 08 models have 83 shells and ISCG05 tabs, so is it possible for this frame to be a late model year 07? I guess this doesn't change the fact, so it doesn't really matter.

The wise option is to use a 57.5mm chainline crankset instead. This can be done with either ISIS cranksets or something like a Race Face Diabolus 83mm shell crankset coupled with their aftermarket shell reducer kit. Essentially you need the longer spindle and Shimano does not endorse using the longer spindle with a slimmer BB setup.

Race Face provides a shorter inner plastic cup sleeve and more spindle spacers to take up the extra spindle exposed outside of the bearing cups. This would allow you to space the backplate out from the frame and all will be grand.

The big ring position will not work b/c the upper slider will come into contact with the back side of the crankarm (usually). If you can get to work then it's a fine solution. Even with the ring in the middle position it is not uncommon to have to grind down the granny ring tabs. Shimano and e.thirteen are currently working on this issue jointly.

As I said higher up, if you've got the 83mm cranks, it's easy.  Get the 73 to 83 adaptor kit and run the ring in the middle position.

Here's what I did to get my cranks running....

The below info is what I figured out with e13's help and based on bikes with a 68/73mm shell and a 150mm back end.

One option, if you can, is to run the device close in to the frame, running a 50mm chainline and putting up with a potentially out of whack line on 6-9th.

Some frames won't allow this - the Commencal, for example, has the pivot right where the device wants to sit.  Early in the '08 season, the Athertons ran XTR cranks with the device sliced up to clear.

What I did is not recommended, endorsed or owt by anyone but it's what I did to run my existing cranks.

Running my chainring in the 'big ring' position to restored the chainline (50mm chainline + 3mm tabs + 3mm ring = 56mm v's the ideal 57.5).

However, to do this I had to grind the granny tabs completely back, to clear the boomerang.

Then the plastics were hitting the crank arm so I had to shave them back a bit too!  About 2mm off the top guide, about 1mm off the bottom, plus the bolt.

Sorted - rode it today fairly hard and so far, faultless.

If you've got the option, buy an 83mm crankset to suit the chainline then fit  a 5mm spacer outside the BB cups.  Race Face allow you to do this with, Shimano don't recommend it as their axle is stepped - the bearing faces are not full width.

It's snug but works - here's a pic
http://gravity-slaves.re-create-it.co.uk/images/commencal/e13_clearance.jpg

I'm now running XTR, no problems so far once I got the bottle to grind off the granny tabs!

UPDATE SINCE THE ABOVE

With the '09 Saint crankset, the BB shell is longer.  This means there's another bodge on hand - again not recommended or endorsed.

Run NO plastic spacers on the left and THREE on the right (or two plus BB mounted ISCG plate).

This pushes the whole chainset 2.5mm to the right.

Next, you can run 1.5 to 2.5mm of spacers on the BB axle, between the right hand BB cup and inside of the crank arms.  You can see a couple of spacers next to the verniers in the photos above.

Warning - these spacers mean the splines are slightly less engaged.  Ensure the safety tab can still lock in place. Sounds sketchy but we're talking 1mm less, I've been running it for a year and it's been great.  Hammered the Masters Worlds and Bala on it no problem.

The combined spacers push the crank over far enough to let you fit the chain guide in and clear the big pivot.

I hope that's clear and helps someone a bit!
« Last Edit: 6 Sep 09, 21:54 by Phil » Logged

steveh
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« Reply #9 on: 17 Nov 09, 21:40 »

Phil,

I currently trying to get this set up running on my new supreme. 09 saints 83mm shell from my sunday.

Do you reckon it's better to do 5mm of spacers each side or just fit the 3 spacers on the rh side and then a spacer on the axle? And if the latter where do you get axle spacers from?

Cheers!
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Phil
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« Reply #10 on: 17 Nov 09, 23:24 »

I think the Supreme has a 68mm BB shell and a 135mm back end. Is that right?

If so, you really need a 73mm chainset to get the right chainline, otherwise you'll have excessive crossover on gears 1-3 and lots of extra faff with spacers.

You really want to avoid using 3 2.5mm BB spacers on the right if you can as you get less BB thread engagement.  This was only a 'non'-recomendation for the specific combo of  68mm shell/150mm back end/'09 Saints in 73mm version.

To fit an 83mm crank to a 73mm shell you want
1 black spacer on the BB, left
2 black spacers on the BB, right
1 5mm spacer between the crank and the axle, both sides.

I made my crank axle spacers in a range of thicknesses in 0.5mm increments.  I did have access to a very nice bit of kit at work that did that bit for me though! Unfortunately I don't any more...

Hope I understood you right and haven't confused anyone further.

My next frame is coming with cranks on ;)
« Last Edit: 18 Nov 09, 09:14 by Phil » Logged

steveh
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« Reply #11 on: 17 Nov 09, 23:43 »

Yup I've got the 09 world champs edition supreme dh with 68 shell, 150 back end and 09 saint cranks, so exactly what you were talking about.

Any reason not to just space the bb out with the 5mm spacers and then a load of washers to move the e13 back plate out so it doesn't hit the pivot point?

Actually whatever I do i'm going to need to space the backplate out a long way aren't i!
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« Reply #12 on: 18 Nov 09, 09:18 »

Oh! For 2010, there's a Supreme and Supreme DH.  First post you said Supreme so thought it was the short travel version with a 135mm back end.

I'm surprised that the '09 frames still come with a 68mm shell.  It's just plain wrong and a complete faff to get the chainline and clearances to work!  Rubbish.

I've modified my above post - the specific problem/bodge I described with 3 spacers and another one under the crank was only for running 73mm (50mm chainline) cranks on a bike and 68mm shell on a 150mm back end / 57.5mm chainline.

Since you've got 83mm cranks you are sorted.  All you need is 2 x 5mm spacers for your crank axle and an inner sleeve from an old 73mm BB.  Or one of these kits....

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=8243

Then, as you say, 5mm more spacers under the back plate to bring the e13 out past the pivot.
« Last Edit: 18 Nov 09, 17:34 by Phil » Logged

steveh
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« Reply #13 on: 18 Nov 09, 17:27 »

You've got a point there Phil, i checked the bb after i posted last night and it is in fact an 83mm shell now. The probelm i think comes because the iscg tabs are fitted set back around 5mm from the face of the bb. I reckon that i'm best ignoring these completely and using an adaptor to get the back plate of the chain device far off out to clear the main pivot cover.

It's still a bit of a ball ache but not as bad as I thought. Just need the BB and cassette to turn up and I should be good to build it.
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Phil
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« Reply #14 on: 18 Nov 09, 17:36 »

Ideal. Glad the BB shell has been updated.  Wish they'd done that with mine!

The adaptor sounds like a good plan.  Probably more solid than long bolts and a big stack of washers.

You swapping the Sunday for a Commencal then?
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